My guy Cenk from The Young Turks says it best here:
August 19, 2010
FLEETING REAL TALK FROM OBAMA ON THE GROUND ZERO MOSQUE
As a follow-up to Murder Dog's post on the whole 'Ground Zero Mosque' debate, I just wanted to give a small amount of props to Obama for actually saying some real shit, -especially considering he knew that Fox News would have a circle-jerk bukkake session all over this speech. Nevertheless; well played... -That is, at least until you had to go and pussy-out by throwing in that weak-ass clarification about the 'wisdom' in building the mosque there (see video). But then again, it IS Obama after all...-Naturally it would only be a matter of time before he started backtracking and angling his way back towards "the center" politically. This is my biggest problem with Obama. The fact that he has rarely, if ever, shown any measure of backbone, since he's been in office, on any significant issue, without trying to placate insane Republican criticisms. Anything short of complete tax exemptions and on-demand blowjobs, for all rich people and big business; the right will inevitably label him a commie or a Marxist or secret Muslim, or whatever the slur du jour is for that particular occasion. -Fuck those people. Contrary to what Rahm Emanuel is telling you, sometimes (most of the time) doing the right thing is not what the majority of registered voters think. You're the motherfucking President of the Unites States. You of all people should know how shitty our schools are, and subsequently how completely stupid the majority of people are. Whether its the popular 'centrist' sentiment or not, people's right to build a mosque on property they own is not debatable. The main point that's been completely absent from this entire 'debate' is: this isn't about how close to Ground Zero they should, or shouldn't build the Mosque; -or what Fox and Sarah Palin think about it. -The Krux of the whole issue is that all Muslim people should not be smeared by the actions of a handful of crazy fundamentalist Saudis with connections to the Bush oil cartel.
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17 comments:
i agree obama should grow a pair, but i also agree with his 'wisdom' statement (not when and how he said it). i'm looking from the viewpoint any business person would. if i was opening a porn shop, i'd probably do a little research before opening it across from a school. if i was opening a night club, maybe the space next door to the retirement home isn't ideal. my point is, these people should have expected this and should have prepared in advance to deal with the backlash of angry new yorkers which could have helped contain this to a local level. which is exactly what this should have remained, A LOCAL ISSUE.
the krux of all this is that you can't even see the building from ground zero not to mention it is a community center, not a mosk. i also like how everyone dropped talking about the economy and no one seems to care about Dr Laura's tirade the other day. im getting sick of this shit.
i know i'm on the verge of sounding contradictory but that's my point.
ok, those first examples didn't hit the mark... here; yes on prop 8 campaign center in the castro... NRA holding a convention in littleton colorado after columbine... A crip community center across from the damu bloods...
of course people are gunna flip about this, what if the u.s decided to build a disney land at hiroshima. and besides what are they gunna be teaching, anti semitism, that women are beneath men. we can only tolerate intolerance for so long. i know all religions are intolerant but rarley do they act on it in the way musslims world wide do. remember the danish cartoon pics a few years back, that wasnt a handful that was the majority
yeah, i'm gona totally disagree with you on that.
Agreed, but in reality, it doesn't matter what i think. It's an issue that faces more difficulty due to the current globalized world. We all have to realize and except the fact that because of technology and 24 hour "news" reporting, everyone has access to view and provide commentary. It's unfortunate that many Americans associate Islam with terrorism, but the fact is, they do. So with that said, Iman (or whatever his name is) should have taken that into account and prepared for what was to come.
Im not hella old, so maybe i'm wrong, but i don't remember politics dividing our country quite like it is now. When was youtube published?
Whats really interesting is that the people who do believe (or need to get elected) that islam is a "monolithic entity that's every bit as horrible and violent" and that 51 park would be a training ground for future terrorist, all they really want is a change of location. if i truly believed a terrorist cell was setting up shop in the US, i'd demand they did more than just move...
daily show just gave the same example of nra and columbine... told ya
the main reason i laugh at this type of fear mongering is because it would be so fucking easy to commit another terrorist attack! one car bomb over the rickety bay bridge and san fran would be fucked..one grenade or molotov into a substation in small town new hampshire and people would freak out..i highly doubt, if this "imam" is 1/10th as radical as fox claims he is, would set up his "terrorist training ground" in downtown new york. the next catastrophic socio-politcal event in this country will most likely be perpetrated by some racist white a-hole..
Common sense says the whole notion of representing Islam with a Mosque anywhere near that area is asking for trouble.
Personally, I think both the hard-core/radical versions of Christianity and Islam are the true lunatics here... Any group, as they both parallel in their heaven & hell beliefs, that preaches about eternal damnation/hell and/or being rewarded in heaven for a few tasks, oops, I mean "good works," has other mental issues at hand and only beckons for war, even though many are oblivious to this fuckin' fact because they are so caught up in their "only we have the path to enlightenment" bull-shit theory of asininity.
As for Obama: Damn, could he make us look any weaker of a country? Our enemies often smile in glee as they see Obama commonly drop to his knee. If he is a closet Muslim, upon closing, maybe the closet door slammed on his testicles, as well?
We have enough pantywaist & spineless pansies in this nation... Praise be the death of organized religions before it eventually and ultimately causes global cataclysmic disaster for all...due to the nutjobs in the middle east combating the woo-woo wackjobs of extreme Christian faith. Preacher Prozac says, "just pass the God damn offering plate; cheers now!"
Ha-ha!
The "Cordoba House" mosque at Ground Zero...
There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia . The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us, while they demand our weakness and submission is over. The proposed " Cordoba House" overlooking the World Trade Center site –where a group of Muslim jihadists killed almost 3000 Americans and destroyed one of our most famous landmarks - is a test of the timidity, passivity and historic ignorance of American elites. For example,most of them don’t understand that “ Cordoba House” is a deliberately insulting term. It refers to Cordoba , Spain – the capital of Muslim conquerors who symbolized their victory over the Christian Spaniards by transforming a church there into the world’s third-largest mosque complex.Today, some of the Mosque’s backers insist this term is being used to "symbolize interfaith cooperation" when, in fact, every Islamist in the world recognizes Cordoba as a symbol of Islamic conquest. It is a sign of their contempt for Americans and their confidence in our historic ignorance that they would deliberately insult us this way. Those Islamists and their apologists who argue for "religious toleration" are arrogantly dishonest. They ignore the fact that more than 100 mosques already exist in New York City . Meanwhile, there are no churches or synagogues in all of Saudi Arabia . In fact no Christian or Jew can even enter Mecca . And they lecture us about tolerance. If the people behind the Cordoba House were serious about religious toleration, they would be imploring the Saudis, as fellow Muslims, to immediately open up Mecca to all and immediately announce their intention to allow non-Muslim houses of worship in the Kingdom. They should be asked by the news media if they would be willing to lead such a campaign. We have not been able to rebuild the World Trade Center in nine years. Now we are being told a 13 story, $100 million mega-mosque will be built within a year overlooking the site of the most devastating surprise attack in American history. Finally where is the money coming from? The people behind the Cordoba House refuse to reveal all their funding sources. America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization. Sadly, too many of our elites are the willing apologists for those who would destroy them if they could. NO mosque. NO self deception. NO surrender.
Essentially what you just said is: "Let's model America's policies on religious freedoms after Saudi Arabia's". Brilliant. Now, thanks to your insight, we can become as backward thinking as they are. Once again, You've already assumed that Islam is a single-minded monolith which is inherently evil and a specific threat to our country. No doubt, Islam has it's share of nut-jobs, but so does every other religion. Call me crazy, but 9 (supposed) psychos (supposedly) flying planes into the WTC doesnt cast a shadow on an entire religion containing of over a billion people.
I'd go so far as to meet you half way on this. My proposal is to:
A- Actually live up to the ideals of what this country was founded on, -in this case religious freedom.
or:
B- Not allow them to build the mosque near ground zero, and also make a new law mandating that all religious places of worship, churches, temples etc. be torn down effective immediately.
I'm leaning more towards option B
why is it so fucking hard for anyone on the left to have an honest discussion of this issue without talking about shit that is UTTERLY beside the point (having the "right" to build the mosque) and straw men (of which there are a great many, and no shortage of examples by the idiot in the video)?
to say that the issue here is one of "rights" is a glib retort given by people who have no idea what this issue is really about. whether you're referring to the right to build on private property on the right to practice your religion, it is NOT the issue. to be clear: NO ONE on the right is disputing that the owners have the RIGHT to build a mosque on their privately owned property or to practice their religion.
the issue is one of propriety, not rights. clearly they have the right to build there, but should they? that is the question. by way of analogy, let me say that I LOVE everything about Japan, but would be disgusted if someone were to propose the construction of a Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor. this is an analogy, of course, but those on the left have displayed an uncanny inability to understand it. building any sort of monument to Islam at this location is at least insensitive and provocative, if not offensive.
furthermore, those who say that the 19 hijackers were Islamist rogues miss the point. we're not fighting a global war on terror bc of 19 individuals. sure there were only 19, but those 19 individuals act in the name of Islam, the radical strain of which commands the allegiance of over 100 MILLION MUSLIMS worldwide and is deeply ensconced in the politics of the muslim world. while 100 million people might be a relatively small percentage of the worldwide Muslim population, it's still 100 MILLION motherfuckers! that's a lot of people!
if it is built, I will not object, I will only shake my head and wonder what the Keith Olberdouches of the world would have said had the American military started construction on a church or Christian center near the Samarra Mosque (the "Golden Mosque") in Iraq all in the same of "inclusiveness" and "cross cultural healing". whatever happens, I wish the best for whatever winds up at that location in NYC, but I do not think building any new muslim centers at such close proximity to ground zero is a good idea.
p.s. sorry for my absence. I've come to love this blog but haven't looked at it in quite some time. I've got some catching up to do. hope everyone's doing well.
and one more thing.
like a few others have said, this issue perfectly illustrates the complete lack of a sack by Barack Obama. he was famous for voting "present" (as opposed to yea or nay) when he was in the Illinois state legislature, and this is simply another example. saying that the owners of the property have the right to build on the property (which no one, to my knowledge, has disputed) but saying "I will not commment" on whether or not they SHOULD, offers nothing new to the dialogue and doesn't take any sides. what a coward. he is, again, trying to vote "present".
sackless fuck. you wanted him, you got him.
Ok, for the sake of having a conversation, rather than an all out debate, Rex, isn't this just coming down to an issue of proximity rather than one of absolute right and wrong? By that I mean, is there a unanimously agreed-upon distance from ground zero that it would be fine to build a mosque? To me the crux of all of this argument is where do you establish that line. Like most issues, there isn't a clear black or white answer. If you ask Sean Hannity, that line is another planet (outside of our solar system). And if you ask me, on a philosophical level, they should
Be able to build it across the street if they choose to.
That being said, i think all religion with maybe the exception of maybe Buddhism is complete horseshit; but I feel that it should absolutely be one's right to
worship as they choose. I feel like these situations are the things that define what our country is really
about, vs. the stuff that just sounds nice on bumper stickers and in campaign speeches. 'Freedom' and all that good stuff shouldn't be by committee based on what the popular sentiment is. It should be the absolute foundation of what this country is about. Before you discount that as
pure idealism, put it in this context: what if a muslim-american family wanted to move into a primarily white upper-class suburb. For argument's sake let's say someone in that neighborhood lost a family member in the WTC on 9-11. Should there be a discussion about wether it is wise, or just, for that family to move to that neighborhood, or should they be able to live any damn where they choose/ can afford to solely based on being American citizens? Should their moving there be considered a 'provocative act' or is it merely the responsibility of the rest of us to distinguish between criminal behavior and people's inherent right to live/ worship where/ as they please? I'm mainly directing this at you Rex because I'm fairly consistently at odds with your political views, but I feel as though you at least give well thought-out insight to support your opinions.
Hollerback,
-S
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